The Jesus Trilemma and the TikTok Generation: Sean McDowell

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The Jesus Trilemma and the TikTok Generation

Guest:Sean McDowell

From the series:More Than a Carpenter (Updated) (Day 2 of 2)

Air date:October 1, 2024

Sean:I think people have always wanted answers; and they always will, because we’re made in the image of God with minds. We want to make sense of the world that we live in. So I found with young people, in the right setting at the right time, they want to know; and they want to have discussions and are open to evidence if we present it the right way. But it doesn’t mean they’re walking around, going: “Does God exist?” “Give me proof of the resurrection.” It’s not quite that simple.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLife Today.com.

Ann:This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave:So I’m holding in my hand a book that changed my life. And I know this—I’m not guessing—it has changed millions—

Ann: —millions.

Dave:—at least, 17 million-plus lives.

Ann: We’re talking about More Than a Carpenter.

Dave:—written by Josh McDowell. We’ve got Sean McDowell, his son, in here as well. And now, your name’s on it as well, Sean. What does that mean? Let’s talk about what’s happening with this book today.

Sean:Well, I guess what that means is my dad invited me to come along beside him and take this classic book and just update it for a new generation. I got to do a ton of research, with some research aids: like a TA from Talbot; three different scholars to go through it, as well, carefully. I hired a couple experts on individual chapters to go through it and just update it. And I honestly think/I mean, obviously, when it sells

17 million copies, a book is great—whatever it is—it’s just that; it qualifies as great. I think this new update is better than it’s ever been.

Ann: What are the parts of the update that you like—that will resonate/that you feel like—I mean, we’re in a new age.

Dave:You just said “better.”

Ann: Yeah, that’s a big deal.

Dave:What does that mean?

Sean:Well, I think one of the reasons this book has done so well is it’s framed by my dad’s story—so his story of radically coming to faith—trying to disprove Christianity.

Ann: And we talked about that yesterday; so listen to yesterday’s episode.

Sean:Good plug; good job.

Ann: Thank you.

Sean: So as we go into these different chapters, he frames it with stories of: “I was talking to this professor…” or “I had this debate…” or “I engage this student…” or “I was traveling on a plane…”; so it’s not just like it’s dumping facts. You feel like you’re going on this journey with somebody, who’s asking the kind of questions that—if you’re a believer, you’re asking about your own faith; or if you’re a non-believer, you’re asking about the Christian faith—so I kind of invite you to go along on this journey with him.

I mean, it’s hard to say “better” when a book, More Than a Carpenter’s, done so well. But we updated, for example, some of the evidence on manuscripts that have been discovered since it was first written; there’s some updates on that. It’s a little bit shorter than it was before, so it’s just streamlined. So in that sense, I think it’s even better than it’s been.

Dave:As you think about it, what are your hopes? Do you hope for anything different than the original?

Sean:From what I’ve heard, this book had sold maybe around a million copies. There was a leader who said to [my dad], he said, “Josh, I think this book has only seen the beginning; and I think it could have greater influence. So why not reach more people now? Why be satisfied and say, ‘Let’s just keep this thing going, tinker along, and maybe sell five percent of what it did’?”

I think his story is more relevant, if not more relevant, today—fatherlessness, sexual abuse he went through; a sister who committed suicide—these are all the issues in the news, and he’s lived through it. It just captures people at the beginning. The first line starts off with, just referring to Aquinas, he talks about there’s this search for happiness in the heart of human beings. He’s like, “That was me. I wanted to be happy.” Well, you can’t read that line without going, “Yes, I resonate with that.” It’s just a brilliant start.

My hope is that we’re—similar to the 1 million to 17 million—17 million; why not 50 million? And it’s not just about numbers to me; it’s just saying, “This is a, for lack of a better term, it’s a resource and a formula that has worked across generations—I mean, in the Middle East, in China, in Latin America, in Eastern Europe—there’s something deeply human and, dare I say, kind of timeless about this book. And so my hope is that God just uses it even bigger than He ever has in the past.”

Ann:Well, I remember when I read it, I was probably in my 20s. When you read it—it’s your dad’s story—but then, it’s the apologetics of it, gives us like: “This is the gospel; this is proof of the resurrection: the manuscripts, the Scriptures.” And so when you read it, you have somebody in mind.

That’s what I did—because I was already a believer; and that somebody, for me, was my dad—because when I gave my life to Jesus, his words to me were, “Hey, I know your sister has become a Christian. But you’re like me; you’re strong. You don’t need that kind of crutch; but she’s weak, so she needs it.” And so when I read this—and your dad, the strength that God gave him what he did—but also the strength in the Scriptures: the strength in what we can put our anchor on with Jesus, and why He’s reliable, and so much of that. And so the first thing I did was I give this book to my dad. I’m not sure he read it. He might’ve read parts of it, but maybe how many years later?

Dave:Probably 20.

Ann: Twenty years later—

Sean: Unbelievable.

Ann: —yeah, he did give his life to Jesus. He realized we all need a crutch. It’s not a crutch—it’s more than a crutch—it’s a lifeline to the gospel.

Dave:Yeah. One day he came home, and Ann and I were not married that long. He was my high school coach as well—

Sean: Oh, interesting

Dave: —when I was a teenager. Ann’s older brother was my center—I was quarterback—he was center. So anyway, I knew the family really well. I’ll never forget—and we were trying to reach him—and even when we were dating, right after we got engaged; they didn’t know this—we got on our knees in her living room at her parents’ house. We knew we were going to get married, and we said, “God, we’re praying that You’d use us in our marriage to reach every person in their family.” And He did, eventually.

Dick was her dad—was the last one—but he came home from work one day, worked in a factory. I’ll never forget—he walked in the kitchen—he goes, “Yeah, I got in this argument with this guy at work, and he’s all messed up,”—and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, “Yeah, okay. What happened?” He goes, “I looked at him. You know what I said?” I go, “No; what?” He goes, “I said, ‘You need what David and Ann got!’” And I go, “What?” “I told him he needs what you got.” And I go, “Dick, what do we have?”

Sean:That’s a great question.

Dave:He goes, “I guess it’s Jesus is what you have.”

Sean: Oh my goodness.

Dave: And so it was like: “He’s watching; he’s seeing.” I’m guessing he read parts of More Than a Carpenter because dots started connecting together. One, obviously, seeing somebody’s life lived out authentically in front of you is so key. But he also needed evidence—he had a bad background with religion and church—and so this impacted him. So I mean, it’s just one story; there’s millions of stories like that.

But talk about this—so you’re, now, editing and revising—“What’s the same?” “What’s different?”

Sean:Kind of like I mentioned last time, when you have a book that’s so successful, you don’t want to change it much. So the chapter titles are the same; the organization and structure is the same. I really just went through and took out some old quotes that needed to be updated, added some new arguments that did not exist when he wrote it in ‘77 or when he updated it in 2000.

Ann: Can you give us an example of one of those?

Sean:So the number of manuscripts that we’ve discovered for the New Testament has increased over the past 30/40 years since he first wrote this book. So that just gives us more confidence that we hold in the hands, the New Testament, as it was originally written down. There’s been some archeological discoveries that we just highlight, because it’s a short book; but we will talk about archeologists like Titus Kennedy and list out some of the archeological discoveries that have been made over the past few years that just help confirm that the biblical writers got it correct. So there’s those kind of updates that you add in a book like this.

Ann:But you surely didn’t take away “Lord, Liar, Lunatic.”

Sean:No, we didn’t; we didn’t take that away. We actually softened some of the language. We still call it “Lord Liar, Lunatic” because it’s great alliteration. But some of the language we looked at: were like, Yeah, do we want to call people ‘lunatics’?” That’s not as politically correct as the kind of terms that people use today. So I’m like, “Okay, we can soften that without losing the content of it. That’s just a wise way to update it.” So there are certain little tweaks like that just to make sure it spoke to people today, especially younger generations might get offended at certain language. It’s like, “Fine; but we’re still going to call it ‘Lord, Liar, Lunatic’ because it rolls off the tongue, so to speak.”

Dave:I mean, can you articulate that argument?

Sean:Sure.

Dave:Yeah; I mean, I’m thinking—one of the reasons I ask—I’m thinking, “There’s parents listening, thinking, ‘Is this a tool I could use with my kids?’ And this might be one of the conversations they could have.”

Sean:So this is not unique to him [Josh McDowell]. There’s quotes in the book from C.S. Lewis, who talked about this—and it goes back long before C.S. Lewis—that: “If Jesus claimed to be God,”—which we have to establish that the Scriptures are reliable: and He didn’t claim to be a God; He claimed to be the God—which we could talk about: “then we really have two/three main options:

Number one—He’s a liar—so Jesus claims to be God, but He’s lying. Is that a reasonable alternative? Well, number one, if he’s lying, that got Him crucified. So why would you tell a story, and affirm it all the way up to the trial in Mark 14, to get yourself, not just killed, but brutally killed in the most shameful, painful way imaginable? That makes no sense. Plus, Jesus gave us, arguably, some of the greatest moral teachings just on loving your neighbor and your enemies—so that comes from somebody, who’s a liar—that doesn’t make sense. So a liar would be: He claimed to be God, but He knew he wasn’t.

The other one is He claimed to be God; but He wasn’t, which would mean: “What kind of person actually says they are the eternal creator of the universe?” and “’Before Abraham was born, I am’?” He’s not just claimed to be a God; He’s claiming to be the God of the Old Testament, who’s the self-existent, eternal, all powerful creator of the universe. Well, that doesn’t sound like somebody mentally stable to view themselves that way. And then we walk through some—we have a couple—here’s a couple great quotes in here from psychologists that I reach out to. One of the leading psychiatrists in the world, [who] deals with mental health; and he’s at Duke University—I reached out to him—and he just said, “There’s no way, with the teachings of Jesus and everything we know about His life, that He’s just”—I don’t think he used the term “mentally insane”—but you get the point that—“He’s psychiatrically imbalanced.”

And so: He’s not a liar; that’s not reasonable. He’s not a lunatic: to use the L from the alliteration. Well, the other [option] is: He’s Lord: He claimed to be God, and He actually is.

Now, you could logically think of other possibilities: “Maybe the whole thing is a legend.” So you got to be careful to say, “It’s not this airtight argument”; but it’s a way of simplifying for people: “If Jesus claimed to be God, we’ve got to make sense of: ‘Is it true, or is it not true?’ And you only have so many options; and the big options are: ‘Either He’s lying,’ ‘Either he’s a lunatic,’ or ‘He’s actually the God that He claimed to be.’”

Dave:You travel the country, as a Christian apologist, and talk and debate on these issues, nonstop. How common is that argument still used?— mean, whether you use those words or not—but that thinking.

Sean:I don’t often lay out the three the way that I just did. Sometimes, if I’m giving a presentation on Jesus to students, I’ll try to get them to grasp it. So I think, on a popular level, you hear it a lot; because some people want to say things like, “Well, Jesus was just a good prophet.” “Well, wait a minute; He claimed to be God.” So the pieces of that argument come up all the time when it comes to Jesus, whether or not people are laying it out in that systematic fashion. But given that two of the top apologetic books are—Mere Christianity: you find it in there; More Than a Carpenter; you find it in there—an awful lot of people are talking about it and using it in some fashion.

Ann: You’re working with college students all the time. You have teenagers, young adults as your own children; you’re traveling constantly: “Is this still an issue, apologetics? Is that still one of the primary issues that people are stumbling upon? Like do they want to know answers, or is it something different today?”

Sean:I think people have always wanted answers; and they always will, because we’re made in the image of God with minds. We want to make sense of the world that we live in. So that’s never going to go anywhere.

Now, the questions people ask, how they ask them, the way they communicate shifts because of social media, and artificial intelligence, etc. But the way I frame it is this: “There’s timeless questions and there’s timely questions. So timely questions today might be people are debating things like climate change, or critical race theory, or LGBTQ; these are larger cultural issues we’ve dealt with in this cultural moment.

But then there’s timeless issues like: ‘Does God exist?’ ‘Is morality objective or is this subjective?’ ‘Is there a Creator to the universe?’ ‘Is the Bible true?’ ‘Is Jesus God?’”

This is not a book dealing with the timely issues; it’s a timeless book. And frankly, if there is a God—and He’s revealed Himself in the Scriptures, and Jesus is that God—then it gets us, halfway, to answering a lot of the timely questions; because now, God has spoken. We have a Word and Scriptures to use as authoritative to make sense of those timely questions.

I found, with young people, in the right setting at the right time, they want to know, and want to have discussions, and are open to evidence if we present it the right way. But it doesn’t mean they’re walking around, going: “Does God exist?” “Give me proof of the resurrection.” It’s not quite that simple.

Dave:Yeah; I remember doing a series at our church when 9/11 happened. That was on a Tuesday morning. We got together, either Tuesday or Wednesday, and said, “Okay, I think what we’re preaching on Sunday needs to be different; the world has just changed.” And so I don’t know if it was that Sunday or the next Sunday; but I think it was that Sunday that I decided to preach on, because everybody was saying, “What is going on with Muslims and Islam the way they believe?” I said, “I’m going to teach you. We’re going to do Islam 101.” So I did a sermon on the five tenets of Islam—blah, blah, blah—and did it three or four times. I remember the fourth sermon, and people came up and asked questions after—and I’m not a scholar like you; I’m not apologist—but I did the best job I could.

And I remember they brought up a Muslim woman; they had called her, and said, “Our pastor’s teaching on this. You need to come and see if he’s representing what you believe true.” And she came up to me, with her friend, and said, “Thank you very much. I have one disagreement with what you said.” And I go, “What’s that?” She goes, “We believe in Jesus just like you do.” And I’m telling you: a crowd gathered to hear this little conversation. And it’s really interesting, as I look back at her, and I really gently said, “Tell me what you believe.” It ended up being a conversation about “Lord, Liar, Lunatic.” It really did.

Sean: That’s crazy.

Dave: I said, “Do you believe, like I do, that Jesus is the God?” She said, “No.” I said, “Well, then, we do have a different belief system.” She says, “Why do you believe that?” And it’s interesting—of all the things I could think of, that’s what popped into my head—”Well, I think, when you think about what He said, and who He was, you have three options. Here they are…”

Sean: That’s great.

Dave: And I used that. That came to me, in probably the ‘80s, when I first got More Than a Carpenter. So I’m thinking, “Man, this truth is still happening.”

So talk about this: you’ve updated a little bit. You said you added something on science to this. Explain that.

Sean:So in 2009, when we did the last update, these new atheists were talked about everywhere—it was kind of a cultural phenomenon—debates on: “Does God exist?” “Is religion bad?” So I added a chapter; that was the one chapter I uniquely wrote in the 2009 version, responding to the new atheists. And I think that’s one reason people loved about that book. But afterwards, I realized, “Oh, I wrote”—this happened in 2006; this book in 2008—”I just dated it to that; and now, [what] people are talking about, we have moved far beyond the new atheist. The cultural conversation has completely changed”; so it dated the book. I just trimmed that down.

We make a key distinction between the scientific and the legal historical method. Because, sometimes, people say, “Alright, Jesus rose from the grave. Can you prove that scientifically?” And I’d say, “Well, no; you can’t prove that scientifically. But you can’t prove anything, historically, scientifically. You can’t prove a lot of things in psychology scientifically—can’t prove that I love my wife, scientifically, depending on how you define science—but I know that’s true. You can’t prove morality, scientifically. And so we just try to make a distinction, and say, “Just because you can’t prove something, scientifically, you can still know that it’s true. How do we know things from the past?”—this is what’s called the legal historical method—”and here’s how we assess things from the past…”

It’s a quick chapter; because most of that book gets into the positive evidence Jesus has risen from the grave—fulfilled prophecy: “The Bible’s reliable,”—but that’s still an objection in people’s minds: that if you can’t know it scientifically, you can’t know it; and it’s all opinion. You want to make sure people realize: “No, there’s other ways we know things, I think, with greater confidence than we actually know certain scientific things. We just trim the chapter down and I think, in fact, made it better because of that.

Ann: I’m thinking of the legacy with your dad, with you. Do your kids know this book pretty well, and could a family read it? We have these families that will contact us, and say, “Hey, we just read your Vertical Marriage book as a family”; I’m like, “What?! You made your kids do this?” And she’s like, “Yeah; and then, we did a book report.” But there are some families that will read books, as a family, if their kids are teenagers; and then, just dialogue. Is that something that could happen? I’m sure you’ve had these conversations with your kids all through life.

Dave:I would say, “Absolutely!”—that’s my opinion; I’m not the author—what do you think?

Sean:Well, it’s funny. My dad’s written a few family devotionals, but we never used family devotionals. We don’t sit down, and go, “Let’s go through dad’s book”; it’s just for so many reasons. But that devotional is for family members who need to carve out time and have questions to ask. He wrote this book and family devotionals, because he’s always asking and thinking on that level.

So we sit down at a meal, and he’s asking us questions about what’s going on in the world; and he’s sharing his recent research as we talk about what’s happening in football, or basketball, or a recent movie. So we are having these kinds of conversations, as a family, pretty regularly and consistently.

Ann: You guys did that, growing up, with your dad.

Sean: Oh, my goodness.

Ann: Give us an example of: “Here’s what’s going on in the world at that time.”

Sean:Well, if you really want to know, I’ll give you insight into the McDowell family. In the ‘80s, when I was growing up, he was doing what was called the “Why wait?” campaign.

Ann: Oh, yeah.

Sean: It was the first global campaign that responded to the sexual revolution. I kid you not—we’d be at the dinner table—and he’d be like, “Kids, new study on AIDS. Just want to share it with you; and then, tell me what you think.”

Dave: “So give me some more fries.”

Sean: I mean, yeah! I gave a talk yesterday on pornography; and this kid came up to me, and goes, “That’s the first non-cringey talk I’ve ever heard.” And it doesn’t bother me to talk about those topics, because we just did that as a family. So he would do that.

He also would—something going on in the news—and I [can’t] think of a specific—but he’d just be like, “Hey, kids, I heard this happened… Tell me what you think about it.”

Ann: I love that he posed the question first.

Sean:He would do questions.

Ann:He didn’t say, “Here’s my view on it…”; he asked you guys.

Dave: —and “Here’s how you should think.”

Sean:Now, he did come around to his view, eventually.

Ann: I’m sure he did, but he didn’t start—

Sean:He has opinions on these things, but he wanted to hear us out. He’d ask questions—and he’d challenge—he goes, “Here’s how I see it; what do you think?” A specific example is when the movie—I think it was late ‘90s; no, it must have been earlier ‘90s; because I think I was in high school—the movie, Schindler’s List, came out. [He] took my sister; me; my wife, now, who was my girlfriend at the time. We went to see it; and then, we went to Sizzler afterwards and just talked about it. I remember he just looked at us, and he said, “Do you think the Holocaust is wrong?” I’m like, “Of course.” He goes, “Why?” I was like, “Because they killed people.” He’s like, “Why is it wrong to kill people?” “The Bible says so.”

He goes, “Why does the Bible say this?” And I’m like, “I don’t know the answer to that.” And we just walked through that: “It’s wrong because God is the source of morality. God is life; He’s made us in His image and expresses that through the Scriptures. If you say killing is wrong, just because it says that in the Bible; that’s actually legalism. It’s wrong because of God’s character, and who He is, as expressed through the Bible.”

So these are the kind of conversations I have with my kids all the time. We go to see movies; and we just kind of talk about: “What’d you see? What’d you think?”—and try to teach them to think critically, even if I haven’t sat them down to read the book. They’d be like, “That would be a little over the top.”

Ann: And it’s better to do it the way you guys have. It doesn’t feel like, “What are we doing?”—what our kids would’ve said—“What are we going to do?”

Sean:One time we were done at dinner. My son looks at me, and he gives me a thumbs up. He goes, “Good speech, Dad.” And I just laughed; “That’s fine.” But my book, Chasing Love,—which we talked about sometime in the past—when I was working the manuscript, my daughter was 12 at the time. I said, Hey, if you’ll just read this, and tell me what you think, and go to coffee with your dad for a couple hours, I’ll buy you a pair of shoes.”

Ann: I remember you told us this.

Sean:And she’s like, “I could get/can I get two for the price of one?” I’m like, “You can get three for the price of one.”

So kids are different. But this is a great book—if you have a kid, who’s interested, it’ll take them two or three hours to read—“Just read it, and I’ll give you some kind of reward. I just want to know what you think about it.” My son wouldn’t do that, but my daughter would.

Ann: But even to pose the question at dinner: “Did Jesus rise from the dead?” How do we know to ask those questions? What are some of the questions you have posed at your dinner table? Because there are a lot of different topics coming up today with your teenagers.

Sean:Oh, my goodness. I am always looking for questions to ask my kids. I took my son to breakfast last year—maybe, it was the year before when he was about ten—we were talking about some drawing and some art. I steered it towards: “Do you think the world is more like something that happens by accident or more the result of something an artist had done?”

Oh, so my son was wearing a shirt, and it had some kind of art design on it; and he’s ten. I’m like, “Hey, so your shirt; that clearly came from an artist, right? And he goes, “Yes.” I said, I’m curious: when you look at the world, do you think it’s more like your shirt that requires an artist? Or do you think it just could happen, like the bottom of a mountain, when rocks fall down accidentally? Which do you think the world’s more like?” He’s ten; he goes, “Oh, definitely artist.” I said, “Why?” We probably talked five minutes; and then, he moved on to something else.

You don’t have to have that conversation. But I’m always looking for questions to ask my kids and have conversations; because data shows: “If you want to pass on your faith, it’s three things:

Number one: live a life worth modeling.

Number two: build relationships with your kids.

Number three: have a regular conversation with them about issues that matter.”

Dave:Say that again. I’m asking, Sean, you to do this; because I want parents to literally, maybe pause, “Go get a pen—pull out your phone, whatever it is—take a note and write this down.” Say it again.

Sean:Number one—

Dave:And explain a little bit; I’d love to hear a little elaboration on those three.

Sean:—live a/model a life your kids find attractive. If they don’t think you’re authentic, and you’re a fraud, and there’s nothing attractive about your life, it doesn’t matter what you say. You don’t have to be perfect, but model the Christian life; live it out.

Second: build meaningful, intimate, close relationships with your kids: spend time with them; listen to them; value them.

And then, third: just meaningful spiritual conversations through the rhythm of life, which helps kids learn how to think about the world. There’s no perfect formula, because kids have this stubborn thing called free will. But I think the research consistently shows doing those three things gives you the best statistical chance of having kids who embrace the beliefs that you have.

Dave:Let me just stop for a second, and say, “Man, if this is hitting home with you—if you’re a parent, and you’re resonating with this—we know—

Ann: —I have always felt like, “Somebody, please help me.” And so we’ve pulled together some of our most helpful parenting pieces into one spot for you.

Dave:And I’d say you’re going to want to get them right now, and we’ve got a way for you to do that. Here’s how you do it: go to FamilyLife.com/ParentingHelp—FamilyLife.com/ParentingHelp—and you’ll find some of the best stuff FamilyLife has ever done, over decades, to help you, and to help us all, on parenting. So go there now.

Ann: Sean, thanks for all you’re doing. We really appreciate you a ton.

Dave:And you’re welcome back here anytime.

Sean: Yes, you guys are too sweet.

Dave: Anytime.

Shelby: I remember reading More Than a Carpenter when I was in my second year of being a Christian, and it genuinely helped me to understand the truths that Christianity claims are real. I read it on the bus from my apartment over to campus, and it really assuaged a lot of my initial doubts as a new believer. I’m so grateful that God used it to set me on a trajectory of walking with him for the last 25 years or so. And you know what? This new version, with Sean’s input, experience, and insight makes the More Than a Carpenter book all the more valuable and rich.

I’m Shelby Abbott; and you’ve been listening to David Ann Wilson, with Sean McDowel, l on FamilyLife Today. You could get your copy of the all-new More Than a Carpenter by going online, right now, to FamilyLife Today.com; or you can look for the link in the show notes; or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-F, as in family, L as in life; and then, the word, “TODAY.”

Do you follow us on social media? Well, you could head over to Instagram and look for the handle, FamilyLifeInsta; or find us on Facebook, just search for FamilyLife. That way, you’ll get more regular encouragement from the ministry.

Now, tomorrow, Ron Deal is here as he talks with Dave and Ann Wilson and a conversation that he had with Scott Kedersha about the challenges of adapting to a new stepdad. That’s coming up tomorrow; we hope you’ll join us. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We’ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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